Need help identifying Enfield No4 MK1 Hello everyone, I am the proud new owner of a No.4 MK1 and am pretty much cluless about identifying anything about it. I wasn't planning to buy one, but for $115 I couldn't walk away without it. Today surviving Lee Enfield No 4. Serial numbers. A website dedicate to the Lee Enfield. No5 Mk1 “Jungle Carbine. The grease etc. The receiver was dated 1/46 and serial number was something like u2150. Aug 17, 2011 To work out which factory that your No4 was made is to look at wrist markings where the serial numbers are. Now this only equates to British No4MkI here. The British made No4MkI’s use a prefix and number – (Alpha numerical) system to identify manufacturer. Another newbie, I have a couple of serial numbers to add to the No4 Mk2 list: No4 Mk 1/2 BSA Shirley (I think), A42681, 1954 with an additional 'FTR 1954' and a '56' underneath the 1954 date stamp.
The Lee-Enfield No. 4 MK 1/2
By David Tong
Savage serial numbers started 0C0001 - thru 0C9999 then 1C0001 - 1C9999 and so on so yours is the 823,642 No4 rifle they produced. Its going to be pretty late on. My '13C' is 1942 so yours is getting on for 700,000 rifles later. Another newbie, I have a couple of serial numbers to add to the No4 Mk2 list: No4 Mk 1/2 BSA Shirley (I think), A42681, 1954 with an additional 'FTR 1954' and a '56' underneath the 1954 date stamp.
After WWII, the Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerley was the sole facility used by the British to rehabilitate rifles tired by five years of arduous service. The example I am reviewing is a representative of what the armorers there performed. Originally a standard No. 4 rifle, its original designation was No. 4 Mk I and this, plus its serial number, was stamped into the left rear receiver bridge just below the rear sight. This serial number differs from the one it was given during its rebuild.
Items that were replaced included the complete bolt, so the receiver was renumbered with the new number of the bolt. The original model and serial were crudely electric pencil lined out and a new one was placed further forward on the left receiver wall. Another new serial number was stamped onto the bottom of the fore end.
The new designation is the title of this article. It represents a minor technological upgrade of the No. 4. All Lee-Enfield rifles through the end of WW II had their triggers pivoting from the trigger guard / bottom iron. While this might not seem to be a big deal, in humid or rainy climates it was. When wood gets soaked, it can expand and this can change the trigger pull. This was most noticeable during the Burma and SE Asian campaigns.
The '1/2' designation involved the installation of a small steel block onto the otherwise stock No. 4 receiver, which the trigger was then hinged on via a cross-pin. (See the article Lee-Enfield No. 4 MK 2.) This metal block was not completely fitted when installed. It was precisely drilled after installation to ensure the perfect alignment of the trigger and sear engagement, thereby providing the best possible trigger pull. This isolated the effect of moisture by changing the direct engagement and disengagement of the trigger on the cocking piece and sear of the bolt.
Other repairs included new wooden blocks at the butt stock heel, around the lateral rear cross-screw and escutcheon near the butt stock socket, on the right side of the trigger guard and near the left receiver ring. These may be simply cemented into place, or attached with oak dowel pins plus cement in larger pieces, such as that of the butt heel.
Curiously, there appears to be a nearly mint five-groove barrel in my sample rifle. Visipics download. It shows no obvious throat erosion or pitting from corrosive priming or lack of care.
No. 4 rifles wore three main types of rear sights. The first was similar to what the later MK 2s wore, a finely machined ladder type aperture with a click adjustable knurled knob for fine elevation adjustment. The second type was used on the MK 1*, a very simple, L-shaped, two position aperture (similar to that of the early M16 rifles) with one aperture set for 200 yards and a higher one with a smaller aperture set for 500 yards.
This example of the MK 1/2 again wears an adjustable Mk II ladder, but with simple stamped construction and engraved range markings from 200-1,300 yards. Elevation is performed by a small spring-loaded detent tab that is much faster to use than the fine-thread Vernier click-adjustable screw of the original sighting system used on the first No. 4s, as well as the final No. 4 MK 2. A downside is that it is quite easy to inadvertently nudge the range setting.
No No.4 rifles had rear sight incorporated windage adjustment. This was performed by moving the front sight (available in five heights) laterally in its dovetail after zeroing with the issue Mk VII cartridges. This is not an unusual arrangement. Mauser 98s, Russian Mosin-Nagants and Japanese Arisakas used a similar method to adjust windage.
The trigger pull is decent, probably about 4.5 pounds with the usual two stage pull common to military service rifles of the period. The first stage also draws the striker back roughly 1/16 inch to full cock.
The exterior of the action is military rough with a 'blackened oil' surface covered with a baked-on black enamel topcoat. The interior machining is quite smooth and maintains the slick bolt-throw for which these rifles are known. The only bolt actions I am personally familiar with that are smoother are the US Krag-Jorgensen (also a rear-locking design), the Italian Mannlicher-Carcano and the Austrian Mannlicher-Schoenauer.
The idea behind this forward-through-repair process was one of postwar economy. Britain was utterly drained after the war and there was no money available for new small arms until the late 1950s. After the end of the war, roughly from 1948-1954, the Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerley carried out extensive depot-level repairs on small arms and even they suffered from labor disputes and strikes. It is said that the goal was to provide a rifle with approximately 80% of its service life restored.
The armory generally ensured that small parts, such as the hand-guard bands, sling swivels, rear sight and other parts were of Fazakerley manufacture. This was indicated by small upper-case 'F' stampings. This particular rifle was originally made at Fazakerley.
It was missing its complete rear swivel assembly, its front swivel and its sling. Who knows what a prior owner was thinking, removing the only decent way to carry a piece that weighs nearly nine pounds. It certainly did not leave Fazakerley that way! These I replaced at slight expense from overseas vendors.
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A few shots to confirm point of impact were taken at 100 yards with factory Remington Express 180 grain Core-Lokt round-nosed, soft-point ammunition. Then it was off to the hunting field for the all but invisible Oregon black tail deer the first week of October. Conditions were cloudy with periods of rain and temperatures in the mid-50s.
I noticed some reluctance to feed the round-nosed ammunition smoothly. I have heard that the magazine's feed lip tabs can be gently bent to correct this, but I haven't done so. I simply switched to the more common spitzer bullet design, which worked without issue.
Alas, several trips to the Coast Range proved fruitless, as these deer are known to bed down shortly after dawn, after feeding and watering. The terrain in the Coast Range is mixed, with thick woods, clear-cut stands of removed timber, rolling hills and quite steep mountains that would make recovering a deer a tough job.
As this rifle came to me in 'military distressed' cosmetic condition, I didn't worry about the rainy weather encountered on our hunting trips. I figured a rifle that had survived World War II would no doubt handle a couple of days in the rain and this proved to be correct.
Posted by
17 | Roof Korean
4 years ago
Ok, so I want to start off by saying that this is simply an entry level guide to buying these rifles (hence “Beginner's Guide”). I am going over nothing particularly comprehensive, nor will I really go into the history of anything. I also won’t really be going over the less common variants, such as the Long Lees, early carbines, and sniper rifles, since this is a beginner’s guide. I also have very little experience with buying Long Lees and whatnot, so I do not feel like I have the credibility to discuss the matter.
Some basics
First thing to cover is basic fundamentals of purchasing a used gun. You know, check the bore, the condition of the wood, overall condition of the metal, how the action is, and bring a dummy round to make sure the chamber is how it should be.
Next thing I want to address is one of the basic Enfield buying rules that /u/Caedus_Vao taught me, and that is the $300 Rule: If it’s in good condition, matches, $300 is a solid deal. If it’s a tad bit more, keep in mind that a lot of people selling used guns (individuals or dealers) are willing to negotiate on shit like this. If they won’t wiggle, and if the Enfield is nice and matching, don’t be afraid to pay more than $300. I recently purchased two Lee Enfields, a Fazakerly No.4 Mk.2, and a Savage No.4 Mk.I. I paid $375 and $500, respectively, but I feel I did well on those purchases, especially on the latter.
I always consider nice old guns as investments, assuming you buy them for the right price. You may not buy them for that purpose, but they are no longer being made, and there is always a market for them, so the prices are only going to go up. As /u/R_Shackleford would tell you, even something as cheap as a Mosin would be a decent investment, seeing a 50-75% gain in value in the past three or four years. The price you buy the gun at and the price it could be potentially sold at are two things I always consider when buying a C&R gun, which is why I pretty much only buy my guns below market value. Buying at market value isn’t a bad thing either, since like I said, prices on milsurps will only rise, but if you sell within the year, don’t expect an immediate return. Also, who doesn’t like to buy things at a lower price? Buying overpriced items however, is something that I avoid at all costs, and you shouldn’t buy overpriced shit, whether you want a shooter, or if you want to collect/invest in stuff. There will always be a better deal somewhere, so be patient.
Be patient and don’t be afraid to walk. Don’t rush yourself into buying a Lee Enfield because you really want one and demand the immediate satisfaction. You will regret that. Take your time, do your research, know what you want, and shop around. If you’re trying to negotiate with someone and they won’t budge, and the price is more than you would like to pay, just say no; you aren’t losing out on anything for doing so.
Matching serial numbers
Matching serial numbers is always a plus. For someone very new to the milsurp market, a lot of guns like Mosins, various Mausers and clones, Lee Enfields, Lugers, etc, will have certain parts with serial numbers that should match the receiver’s serial number. On Lee Enfields, there are various places to look:
Lee Enfield No 4 Mk1 Markings
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with non matching rifles, but from a standpoint of collector’s value, they don’t carry much weight. I would never pay more than $275 for a non matching rifle, although if it was the magazine, I don’t make too big of a fuss. A No.5 Mk.I is the one exception I will make, but even then, I probably won’t pay more than $350 for one. If do just want a shooter or a woods gun, a non matching rifle will be fine. Non matching is also a great point to use when negotiating price.
Manufacturers
There are many many manufacturers that you will potentially run into, and you can check these by looking on the right or left side of the wrist, or the left receiver wall. Mk.III and Mk.III*’s will typically tell you on the right side of the wrist who made it. On rifles like No.4 and No.5’s, you may be left up to manufacturer codes/markings, so I’ll give you those. I’ll also give you what manufacturer made what (within the limits of this post).
Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 Serial Numbers
RSAF Enfield - SMLE Mk.III and Mk.III* - ENFIELD, EFD, D (with a little line in it), UE
ROF Fazakerly - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.2, Mk.½, Mk.⅓, No.5 Mk.I - ROF(F), FY, F, UF
ROF Maltby - No.4 Mk.I - ROFM, OFM, RM, M
Birmingham Small Arms Company (BSA) - SMLE Mk.III, Mk.III* - BSA Co, BSA & M Co, M47A
BSA Shirley - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.½, No.5 Mk.I - B, M47, M47C, 85B, BS, UB
London Small Arms Co (LSA) - SMLE Mk.III, Mk.III* - LSA Co.
Longbranch - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.I* - LONGBRANCH, L with a B in it, L prefix serial number, C with a little A in it
Identifying Lee Enfield Rifles
Savage Arms Co - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.I* - S, S in a box, C prefix serial number
Lithgow - SMLE Mk.III, Mk.III* - LITHGOW, MA
Ishapore - SMLE Mk.III, Mk.III*, 7.62 2A - RFI, GRI, IS, ID - I do want to say something about Ishapores. There seems to be this stigma against Ishapore rifles, and how they are allegedly lower quality than others. I would like to say that is blatantly false. Pre independence rifles (pre-1947) were all subject to strict British manufacturing standards and quality control, and even post independence, the quality control from the factory and government were very good. They may look hideous because of all of the suncorite (thick black paint that looks like tar) slathered on the rifles to protect them from India’s environment, but they are every bit as good as their British counterparts.
Pakistan Ordnance Factory - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.2 - POF
So now, at last, I’ll go over the models, and pricing.
Most SMLE’s will look like this, with the full mannlicher style stock, the bulldog esque nose cap, and the rear sight protectors.
Actual Mk.IIIs are actually pretty hard to find now, or at least examples with the Mk.III features, and have not been updated to Mk.III* spec. An original and true Mk.III will have four key features that will distinguish it from a Mk.III*: magazine cutoff, volley sights, a rear sight adjustable for windage, and a stacking swivel on the nose cap. Rear sights adjustable for windage are pretty rare, as are volley sights, as those were the first two features to get scrapped during war time. I wouldn’t say magazine cutoffs are exactly rare, but they are fairly uncommon. Nose caps machined for stacking swivels really aren’t uncommon, and they are sometimes even featured on Mk.III*’s.
For a Mk.III with any ONE of those features (except the stacking swivel), I would pay $350-400 (kinda low), assuming it’s matching, and in decent condition. For any combination of those parts, or all of them on a rifle, a rifle should be fetching $500+, again, condition pending. Of course, for a Mk.III with none of those features, it has just as much value as a Mk.III*, so $300 rule.
No magazine cutoff, no windage adjustable rear sight, no volley sights, and maybe you’ll find a stacking swivel. These are exceedingly more common than Mk.III’s. Pretty bland. Check condition, check to see if numbers match, $300 rule, but I wouldn’t mind doing $350 for a nice one.
For both Mk.III and Mk.III*s, you may find wire wrapped rifles intended for launching rifle grenades, and those MAY fetch more than regular SMLEs, going for $350-400, but still apply the $300 rule if possible. More if the grenade launching cup comes with it.
You’ll see these rifles fairly often out there, probably more so than an SMLE (at least in my experience). These are most commonly identified by having “No.4 Mk.I” written on the left wall of the receiver, the receiver mounted rear sight, usually having a large battle aperture, and an elevation adjustable smaller aperture (200-1300yds), the exposed end of the barrel, and a bolt release tab under the rear sight on the right side of the receiver. Most No.4 rifles will typically look like this.
One of the more notable things you should be looking for is a milled Mk.I micrometer rear sight. They are much better looking, more precise, and resemble a greater care for quality in No.4’s. You’ll usually see these in early war and post war rifles. Here is a picture from Ian Skennerton’s book to help you identify the other shitty stamped sights you will find.
You may also run into two different types of barrels: a Mk.I and a Mk.II barrel. The Mk.I is the typical five groove Enfield barrel, and the Mk.II is the two groove bore. People like to bad mouth the Mk.II for being inferior to the Mk.I, but the Mk.II was tested with Mk.VII ball, and it was determined that the accuracy with the standard issue Mk.VII was effectively identical the the Mk.I barrel. There is nothing wrong with either. If someone like /u/CoyoteBrown says otherwise, call him a faggot, especially if it’s /u/CoyoteBrown. Another nice thing to have a No.4 Mk.I is the GRIPZONE™ on the lower handguard, being largely an early war feature.
If you see a Savage or Longbranch No.4 Mk.I, and you can get it for <$700, you fucking buy it. Savage only made about 120k, and Longbranch about 7-8k. These are rare and desirable rifles. If you’re lucky, most dumbasses won’t be able to tell, or won’t give a shit about the significance/rarity, of a Savage or LB No.4 Mk.I over a Mk.I*, so if you do see one for sale, try to play it dumb and snag that bitch.
$300 rule applies, but you’re going to be cutting it close. People will typically sell these for $300-400, and if you’re paying $400+, it better be a pristine fucking No.4 Mk.I.
These rifles were only produced by Savage Arms and Longbranch Arsenal. As the * would suggest, the Mk.I* was a cost cutting rifle that was adopted due to the lower cost and shorter manufacturing time. These rifles are easiest identified by “No.4 Mk.I*” being stamped on the left side of the receiver wall, just like where No.4 Mk.I would have its markings. Savages will typically have a C prefix serial number, and Longbranches will typically have an L prefix serial. Mk.I*’s also have a cutout in the bolt guide rails to remove the bolt, and lack the bolt release tab beneath the rear sight. These rifles will also usually have shitty stamped sights, and lack the GRIPZONE™.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with Mk.I*’s, but the simple truth is that collector’s value is not that high for these. Most will typically sell (and rightfully so) in the $300 ballpark, so use that rule.
The biggest between these rifles, and the Mk.I series is that the trigger is hung from the receiver instead of the trigger guard. This helped alleviate some accuracy issues in the rifles. You’ll usually be able to tell a Mk.2 from a Mk.I by the screw that goes across the rear of the stock from end to end. Mk.½’s are Mk.I’s that were updated to the hung trigger, and Mk.⅓’s are Mk.I*’s that were updated to the hung trigger. With both those rifles, you’ll typically see the original manufacturer stamp on the left side of the receiver being crossed out and the new designation stamped on it.
These rifles will typically have the five groove barrels and milled rear sights. Furniture will usually either be beech or walnut, and I really think the light blonde beech wood contrasts the heavy black paint really well on these rifles.
Mk.2 and Mk.½ pricing should be very similar to Mk.I pricing, but Mk.2’s tend to be in better condition than Mk.I and Mk.½’s, so they will usually sell for more. In fact, most Mk.2’s I’ve seen tend to be in absolutely fabulous condition, looking like they’ve never been used (and they probably weren’t, or at least that heavily).
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